Friday, July 6, 2018

Robert from Oklahoma

This past week a popular Evangelical thought leader made a major blunder on his Facebook page - he posted an image of a verse from the Book of Mormon and said it was "God's message for America!". Of course the comment section was simply incredible.  I couldn't help myself but get involved. (He eventually deleted the post when he realized his mistake, but not before it was posted at Pulpit and Pen)

One guy, Robert from Oklahoma, commented that the Book of Mormon is all lies and there is no truth in it."  This is low-hanging fruit, my friends. Prepare yourself for a ride.

I replied that he couldn't say that and call himself a Christian, since the Book of Mormon contains such verses as Mosiah 3:8-10 which are obviously things that anyone claiming to be a Christian should agree with. (Jesus is the Son of God, born of Mary, come to save us from our sins...) You can disbelieve the origin story of the Book of Mormon and thus reject it as scripture, but you cannot say that it is "all lies" or you will be rejecting Jesus Christ as your Savior (or even just as a historical figure for that matter).

Apparently after Robert read my reply, the original post was deleted.  He, much to my excitement, decided to continue the discussion via private message.  The following is a copy of our discussion:

Robert:
Guess I got blocked by the admin... So I’ll reply to you directly. Don’t care. The truth sprinkled with a little falsehood is a whole lie. False doctrine, false prophet, workers of inequality, lying in the name of Jesus and the one true God. I can’t be a Christian and not call out that bullshit for what it is. The work of devils. Just like Catholicism, only that bastardous whore of Babylon is way better at twisting it’s lies into something believable. Father of the lie = Satan, children of the lies = everyone who follows false prophets and doctrines. You ten gallons of the freshest spring water and put in one drop of arsenic, it’ll kill you just the same as a knife in the back. So it is with truth and lies. Just read what God’s Word actually says about people who teach or follow false doctrines.

Me:
Careful, your ignorance is showing again.
According to the EPA, drinking water is harmless until there are over 7 drops (a "drop" is defined as 0.05mL) per 10 gallons. (EPA standard is 0.38 mL arsenic per 10 gal water). Even at higher levels, it will make you sick but not kill you. Most of us have arsenic coming through our taps at a much higher concentration than a drop per 10 gallons.

In order for arsenic to be lethal, one must consume over 12 "drops" (0.6 mL) in a 24 hr period. So a "drop of arsenic in 10 gallons of water" is only lethal if you plan to drink 120 gallons of water in a single day. That's physically impossible. You'd die of hyponatremia looooong before the arsenic got to you.

To put it in the words of a famous Mormon pop star: "One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch, girl." https://youtu.be/1wunv9U4IWk


Robert:Okay... I see I’ve wasted my time on another foolish person. Substitute the poisoning agent for what ever you like. God’s Word isn’t something to be taken lightly. 1 John 4:1-6, Matthew 7:15-20, Genesis 3:1-4, Revelation 22:18-19.
-at this point he sent me a random anti-Mormon link which I will respond to in a future post-

Me:Thank you! I don't think it's foolish to understand chemistry but if you do I can respect your opinion. I've read the verses a great many times (funny, I'm actually studying Matthew 7 as we speak), but the link is new to me. I'll be sure to check it out.

Robert:I call you foolish, not for you affinity of chemistry, but for your unwilling or inability to see the truly important message behind my water & poison illustration.
-at this point he sent me two more random anti-Mormon links which I will also respond to in future posts-

Me:I understand the point you're trying to make, although it is scientifically unsound. I just don't understand the logic that lead you there. Its a contradiction in terms to say that the whole thing is false when it contains true statements. It's simply nonsensical, whether you are talking about religion or anything else. The verses you provided aren't helping me. Who are the "false prophets" Matthew 7 is talking about? Pope Alexander? Martin Luther? John Calvin? And where is the "bad fruit" to distinguish Mormonism as the diseased tree as opposed to any other Christian sect? John 4 says "every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God"... Well the Book of Mormon does that, as did Joseph Smith and every subsequent Mormon after him, so by that logic they are all from God. Revelation 22 demonstrates a poor understanding of the Bible's history. "This Book" applies only to the book of Revelation. We know this because was not the final book written (even John himself wrote his Epistles after Revelation), the Bible as we know it was not compiled into a single volume until hundreds of years later, and on top of that, Moses says practically the same thing in Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32. Genesis 3... I'm not sure why that was included. I really do appreciate the links though. Please send me more if you have them.

Robert:The Slave Girl with a Demonic Spirit in Acts 16:16-24 is a very clear indication that not every spirit the professes Christ’s divinity is of God. Furthermore the core doctrinal teachings of Mormon are at odds with the truth message of God’s Word found in the Bible, both in the New Testament and the Torah.

False prophets are anyones who seek to deceive people for their own goals and desires. As well the bad fruit is readily apparent by all the misdeeds brought to light of MUCH sexual misconduct in the Mormon & Catholic communities. Much of which involving children.

This is a spiritual footprint to the idols of old that demanded child sacrifices, and birth cultures that common demonstrated sexual impurity in all manner ilk.

One dose not reconcile a demonic spirit. One only should cast them out. So the demonic spirit that is the indwelling spirit of the church of Mormon is the enemy of the Holy Spirit, Christ and all God’s people.

Me:So are you telling me that 1 John 4:2 is false? It says quite plainly that "every spirit that confesses Jesus is come in the flesh is of God." Is that a lie?

Robert:No. I’m plainly saying that not even Satan, his devils, or any of the other fallen angels are able to deny the divinity, holiness or Lordship of Jesus Christ, God the Father or the Holy Sprite. It only take two witnesses to justly accuse some one of a crime, perjury, or heresy; according to God’s laws pertaining to His Church and People. Catholicism is openly referred to as one of the many heads of the Beast from the book of Daniel.. And as you can see, Mormonism has been outed as demonic sex cult several times already. By ministers, theology journalist, and even testimonies by it’s own former members. For the recorded the story Michael told of his trial with the demon of Mormon isn’t the first I’ve ever heard. What the actual hell do you think stigmata is? It’s a demonic manifestation. Ay, I’m sorry if you’re involved with one of these two organizations, and you have to find out you’re thigh high in something inherently evil. But the good news is that Jesus Saves. Nobody is beyond redemption. ( except one that blasphemy the Holy Spirit. Mark 3:28-30 ) I’ve even seen stories of former Satanist, possessed women planing to be impregnated and have their babies sacrificed, men who were sorcerers who use their dark wisdoms to gain money and influence. Anybody can be saved once they’ve really put their faith in the Real Jesus.

Me:If Satan and demons also proclaim the divinity, holiness, and Lordship of Jesus, then how are we to know if someone preaching about Jesus is possessed by an evil spirit or if they are of God?

Robert:For one, none of God true people can be possessed only oppressed. That meaning an evil spirit could cause me to feel feeling of sadness or depression, but it couldn’t take control of my body. Secondly any false teacher claiming to be a part of God’s people, but really has a demon in them, will always manifest some evil behavior. Be it in their character or witness. Either they will do something that totally contradicts Christ nature, or they will bare some sort of falsity to what is written in God true Word. The Bible says that “many false teachers have gone out into the world” and “many will be deceived” but “The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.” If you feel like you might be unsure of how to sift through the lies and false teachings of this world, earnestly seek God in His Word and pray for wisdom, and ask for the comfort guidance that comes from the Holy Spirit given to all who have inherited the promise of life in Christ Jesus. 23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24

Me:So we know that someone preaching the gospel is from God and not possessed by the devil if they cannot do something against God’s nature? This is very concerning to me. Didn’t Abraham take Hagar as a mistress and then leave her in the wilderness? What about when he was going to murder Isaac? How did he know that was God telling him to sacrifice his child and not Satan pretending to be an angel of light? Samson had sex with a harlot. Balaam spoke with God and then became a soothsayer. David was a murderer and adulterer. Jonah defied God and spoke false prophesies.. Elisha told a man to lie. Moses doubted God and disobeyed his command to smite the rock for water. Noah was a drunk. Paul quoted pagans and called it scripture. Peter denied Jesus. The OT Saul consulted with a witch. Solomon was an adulterer and fell into idolatry. Are these things not evil behaviors contrary to God's nature? The Bible tells us that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Everyone goes against God’s nature, even those whom He chooses to be leaders. Whom then can we trust? I do believe that we can rely on the Holy Spirit to testify truth to our hearts. You say the Holy Spirit is promised to those who have inherited life in Jesus. How do I know if I have really inherited life in Jesus (and am being led by the real Holy Spirit) or if I have fallen for a counterfeit gospel preached by Satan (and am being led by a demonic spirit)?

Robert:Are you a Mormon or Catholic?

Me:Does it matter? Isn't the way to discern God's truth from Satan's lies universal?

Robert:This is just one way for me to find out how screwed you are.

God's truth is unchanging and everlasting. And the Holy Spirit dose come to help those that earnestly seek and surrender to Jesus Christ. But if you've been indoctrinated by a satanic organization of lies from childhood, you may be in for a really hard time. But take heart. In this world Jesus promised the we would all have times.. But he has overcome this world.
John 16:33

Me:I don't know how to know if I'm screwed, because I don't know how to tell if I'm following the real Jesus. I can't trust the Bible because you've said 1 John 4:1-3 is not correct and evil spirits will testify of Jesus. I can't trust the witness of prophets and disciples because you've said that anyone who contradicts God's nature could be possessed by a demon, and everyone has contradicted God's nature. I can't trust the Spirit because I may unknowingly be following a demonic force pretending to be from God. This is a really scary prospect. What is it that makes you sure Mormonism and Catholicism is Satanic? Is there something in the Book of Mormon that is obviously evil and could not have come from God?

Robert:Maybe you’re just screwed because you can’t find the truth of the gospel solely based on the Scriptures written in the Holy Bible, that is God’s true Word. The fact that you can accept false teaching like Mormonism, but find fault in the original texts it steals from is a huge red flag. God knows his children and they know him, and they listen to Him. So even hard to understand passages in the Bible will become clear as spring water. However you don’t seem to know/trust God, or listen/seek Him in spirit and truth. Now I could be wrong. However Micheal from the previous testimony says that even though he was brought up in a Mormon family he felt something was off. God saw the contriteness of his heart as he earnestly sought to find the true way to the Father. Even though he was embedded in something that demonic from childhood, he felt a desire to know the truth. Ask yourself, do you really want to know Jesus and the true God of Creation? Or do you really want to stay in what’s comfortable for you now? Only those who truly seek the Father will find him. And only by surrendering your will to His will it ever be possible to walk the road that leads to life. But the Father is kind and merciful. If you are steadfast and honest in your search to know his will for your life, He will show you the way.

I recommend getting involved in a good local Christian Church in your area, someplace with a healthy congregation and a good theological teaching background. If you don’t have anything like that, there are plenty of fine online ministries to choose from.

-at this point he sends me links to Church on the Move, Hungry Gen, Lifestyle Christianity, and Bethel. Probably wont post commentary on these.-
I pray that the Lord’s will will be done in you life and all things. Even unto the end of the earth.

Me:
I do believe in the Bible. I take it at it's word when it tells me how to try the spirits. I believe that I can trust the testimony of prophets and disciples even though they sometimes sin. I believe that the Holy Spirit will testify the truth to all men, and that this witness is undeniable - when you feel it you know you are not being deceived. My concern is for you. It appears you aren't willing to trust God's word as it is in the Bible or the messengers He has sent but only to find fault in them to fit your own beliefs. You aren't willing to earnestly seek God's truth through a relationship with Him, but are content to sit comfortable and accept what you have been told by others. God loves all His children and is constantly calling to them. He does not limit His call to one nation, one time in history, or one book. God's truth and love is not exclusive. You can't tell me what is wrong about the Book of Mormon because you've never read it and are unwilling to. Why? Ask in prayer for the Holy Spirit to guide you. If it is false, you should be able to easily detect that. If it's true, you will be closer to God. I would love for you to read it and list all the satanic lies in it for me. I've critically examined it for 25 years and haven't found them. Actually read it and trust God, not a website, to tell you. See for yourself if God is in it or not. I'm happy to send you a copy or you can download a free app. Being a Mormon is not "comfortable" for me. Most of my family and friends have left the faith and are daily trying to pull me away into atheism. Anytime someone (even a complete stranger) knows my faith they only seek to challenge it, but are completely unwilling to actually look at it for themselves. I do not feel comfortable, but I do feel secure. I know in Whom my salvation lies and trust Him alone to guide me. I am involved in local Evangelical churches as well. Three of my close friends are Pastors. I attend their services quite regularly and am troubled by what I see. They preach a god who is exclusive, who has predestined most of his beloved children to eternal torment. A god who created all things only to fill his selfish need for praise. A god whose nature is so confusing it would be impossible to know him. They cherry pick the Bible to justify false doctrines of men like Pope Alexander and John Calvin. They are completely unwilling to truly seek God for themselves and are unwilling to rely on God alone to lead them. I appreciate your prayers for me. I too pray daily that I will not be deceived. Every time I do I receive an undeniable witness that I am on the right path. I will pray that you will take God at His word and trust Him alone. He is not limited to one time, place, book, or people. Trust the witness of God's word in the Bible - James 1:5-6 says that we should seek the truth from God and put all our faith in Him for answers. This is how the great teachers and prophets of the past got their knowledge, and since God does not change it is how we should gain ours as well.

Robert:
Ask yourself this and seek out the answer. Why is it that Mormons, Catholics and Muslims can be possessed by demonic spirits, even though they all claim to worship the same god? Not all people are God children. If you truly believe you can’t trust the God of Israel, the Father of Jesus and the author and articulator of the Christian faith, you have already condemned yourself by your disbelief. I know that Mormons believe that there is no condemnation in the afterlife and that all will find there way to a heavenly place. This is a lie from the roaring pits of hell. I also know that Mormons believe that salvation comes from works. But that to is at odds with what God has spoken. Because over and over again God’s Word says that salvation comes by Grace alone, through Faith alone, so the no body can boast in their works. I could go on and on pointing out the very clear heresy of Mormon doctrine. Matthew 22:30 “In the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Instead, they will be like the angels in heaven.” However not only do Mormons find it acceptable to take more than one wife at a time ( disobeying numerous commands by God to have and honor one husband to one wife ) but they also teach that in the afterlife men and women will continually engage in the carnal behaviors of sex in order to produce and populate planets of their own design... Feel free to correct me if I missed something about that part. But the massive ego behind such an enormous affront to God is enough to put even Satan’s first claims to exalt himself above God and Heaven to shame many times over. You say you want to know God. But I think it’s something else brewing in that heart of yours... I think, deep down, you still want to be god.
-At this point he sends me a link to an anti site called Making Mormon Spirit Babies. You bet I'm excited about commenting on that in a future post!-

I’m looking forward to being in God’s presence all day, everyday! I’m looking forward to seeing friends and loved ones who are already there, worshipping and falling at the feet of the Bridegroom and doing whatever He has for me to do. The thought of being eternally pregnant doesn’t just make me sick physically, but my heart as well. The Mormon Church teaches the exact opposite of what the Bible teaches about a “true marriage” in heaven.”

Me:
Why is it that Mormons, Catholics, and Muslims can be possessed by demonic spirits? Honestly I don’t know if they can, I’ve never known anyone to be possessed by a demonic spirit. Are Christians never possessed? I have heard a story from the very early days of Mormonism in which Newell Knight (who was a Christian at the time) was possessed by a demonic spirit when he was attempting to pray about the things Joseph Smith had taught him. Joseph cast the demon out and all who witnessed it were converted to Mormonism. But that’s the last demonic possession I’ve heard about. It’s somewhat of an urban legend and it was almost 200 years ago. Why would a demon try to prevent him from asking God if Mormonism were true? It only makes sense that Satan would try his hardest against those who are seeking to leave his ways and come to God’s truth. Why would he bother with people who are already deceived and who have hardened their hearts against God? What is really scary to me is that you said not all people are God’s children. Whose children are they? God says in the Bible that He is the Creator and Father of all our spirits. Again I trust what the Bible says about God, and you are denying it. Satan cannot create life, that is why he seeks to possess others. Do you not believe the Bible? You keep telling me the Bible is wrong. I fully trust God alone and take Him at His word. He says He is the Father of all and I believe it. You are trusting what men have told you about Mormonism, not what we say about ourselves. I believe that God will save everyone who wants to be saved. If someone doesn’t want to accept His gift to them, they’ll be damned. However, he won’t just shrug his shoulders and send people to hell because they never had a chance to hear the gospel. In the Bible God says He is merciful and just, and that the gospel is preached to the dead, and I believe Him. He has prepared a way for ALL, and given them the right to choose. Salvation comes only through Jesus – no amount of good works has the power to save. I don’t know where the works accusation comes from but it’s simply not an LDS teaching. It’s not in the Bible, it’s not in the Book of Mormon, and it doesn’t make logical sense. I don’t believe people can get married during the resurrection- as you’ve said, Matthew makes it clear that it won’t happen. I don’t believe that its acceptable for just anyone to take multiple wives, but that sometimes God allows it. This happened in the Old Testament, if you don’t believe it then you don’t believe the Bible. I don’t believe that we will have sex in the eternities, be ‘eternally pregnant’, or design our own planets – this is not in the Bible, not in the Book of Mormon, not something any Mormon prophet has ever said. There is no ego here, only a desire to take God at His word and not put man-made limits on Him. My ultimate goal and the purpose of my creation is to eventually become “one” with God – that is, to develop a relationship with Him to the extent that all my desires are His and that His power is made manifest through me. No being has power to take that upon himself, it is a gift of God to those who dilligently seek Him. If being united with God makes me “god” then so be it, and to God be the glory for it is His work. Please, take God at His word and trust Him alone. Seek Him. Stop trusting the rumors and doctrines of men. Don’t twist scripture to fit your own ideas. Don’t limits on what God can do and whom He can speak to. My invitation to prove to me the doctrine of the Book of Mormon is contradictory to the Bible still stands.

Robert:
A woman's family is held together by her wisdom, but it can be destroyed by her foolishness.

Don't be stupid and believe all you hear; be clever and know where you are headed. (‭Proverbs‬ ‭14‬:‭1, 15‬ CEVUK)

The God of Aberham, Issac and Israel, is not the god the Mormon worship. You are lost and fooled fully if you truly believe that it is. Mormonism is not an offshoot of Christianity and you have no part in the promise talked about in John 15:5. No, you are the branches that will be cut off and thrown into a fire. You are however free to stand by the heretical teachings of your demonic religion. Just because you say your views vary from what is taught in the doctrines of Mormonism doesn't change the fact that the roots that tree sought to sprout are rotten. I know that the faith of you mormons is that of demons because every time I come across a testimony of somebody leaving Mormonism, they've testified to having to go through an ordeal of being rescued from an incubus or spirit of lust. In one such case, the very first I came across many years ago, the woman said that the evil spirit had the audacity to even appear as Jesus. So I can say with all due sympathy, that the "security" you feel is no mistake. Demons are working very hard to keep you, so that you and your children will continue to propagate their masquerade. The Bible even says "Satan himself can appear as an angel of light." 2 Corinthians 11:14 No wonder it is that Joseph Smith was alone in the wilderness when he said that an angle came and revealed this new message from "god" to him.

Ask yourself a simple question. Why would Jesus say unto all his disciples "Go froth and preach the gospel to all the world." Luke 14:23, Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:7-8, Mark 16:15-16...If, according to your Joseph Smith, he was just going to appear to other people groups himself? Furthermore, if you're able to reconcile that nonsense, why would the Son of the Most-High be limit himself to one nation, in regards to a supposed after resurrection minister? Baser speculation still, no native people groups or tribes corroborate these alleged stories of visitation by the resurrected Messiah. Trust me. A great deal of my family and friends, and their families are native. And if there's one thing I know about natives it's they can't handle their fire water...haha ( but really ) They love to pass down old stories. If such a tale had been told, it would have been told to me by now.

You are obviously deeply wrapped up in something you do not fully understand. And if you are trying to get out, but just don't know how or why, I hope this was just a little more of the push you needed to see reason. But if you are indeed literally Hell bent on staying true to Mormonism till the end. I pray you have nothing but troubles, turmoil without rest, bitterness, and all your children come to despise even the memories of the time they spent cloaked in the dark foolishness of your terrible sins. In Jesus Mighty name! Amen 🙏🏾


-here he sends a link to a sermon about guarding the gospel from demons. I'll probably make a post about that too, mostly because I don't understand how a demon is going to hijack God's plan.-

-At some point while I was composing the following reply, Robert from Oklahoma blocked me, so he never got to see this. I hope to meet him someday and finally get some answers. Robert, if you're out there, my offer will forever stand. Please prove me wrong. And please stop contradicting yourself.-
Me: 
The Book of Mormon repeatedly exhorts us to have faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and assures us that the Book of Mormon people were descended from these prophets. (1 Nephi 17:40; 1 Nephi 19:10; Mosiah 7:19; Mosiah 23:23; Alma 5:24; Alma 29:11; Alma 36:2; Helaman 3:30; 3 Nephi 4:30) How can I not really be worshiping the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?  The God I believe and worship claims He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I can’t see any reason why He isn’t.
My beliefs do not vary from what the LDS church teaches. The things that you listed as Mormon beliefs are not what the LDS church teaches. They are lies you have heard from people seeking to turn others away. As I said, those things are not taught in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or by any LDS prophet. Please, examine the texts and prove me wrong.  You have access to all of our scripture, all the words of our prophets, and all our curriculum and teaching materials free online. I can send you links if you want. Please show me where it says I will be eternally pregnant and create my own planet. Please show me where it says I am saved by good works and not Jesus. Show me where it says there is no condemnation in the afterlife. If these are such prevalent Mormon doctrines, you should be able to find them quickly.

Joseph was sometimes alone, as in the case of the first vision and the initial visits of Moroni, but at other times people shared in his visions and bore witness that they saw angels together with him. This is recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants and the Testimonies of the Witnesses. Why was Moses alone when God called him in the burning bush? Why was Samuel alone when God called him in the night? God isn't really in the habit of calling prophets in a group setting.

If Jesus wasn't going to speak to other people and continents, why did he say "Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold. Them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice." He literally visited His 'other sheep', and they literally heard His voice. Again, I'm taking the Bible literally at it's word. Do you?

There probably shouldn't be DNA evidence of the Book of Mormon people in modern native tribes, because the Book of Mormon people were (spoiler alert!) killed at the end. We have no archaeological evidence of Noah's boat, or the stone tablets and Ark of the Covenant, or the nails from the cross - do you believe the stories of Noah and Moses and Jesus are real? Just because something isn't found yet doesn't mean it isn't there. If you really want evidence, some Mormons believe that the Adena and Hopewell mound-building cultures are a good fit. Others fine correlation in the Quetzalcoatl legends in Mesoamerica. There are many things mentioned in the Book of Mormon that historians and archaeologists had no evidence of when it was published in 1830, but which we now do have evidence of. If Joseph made it up he was an extremely good guesser.

As much as I love answering all your questions, I can't help but notice that you haven't answered any of mine. Is 1 John 4:1-2 a lie, and the antichrist really can preach of Jesus? Can I really not trust anyone who has sinned? Does the Bible lie when it says God is the Father of us all, and if so, who is the father of the others? Where does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible - chapter and verse?